Flame Colourent and Effect

Daedra · Posted: Fri 02nd Nov, 2007 11:54 am Post subject: Flame Colourent and Effect

Hiya Guys!

Right well me and a few friends of mine have been delving into various ways of adding triggered flame effects into poi routines, say for a performance!

A lot of the effects we were thinking of using are of a coarse powdered chemical, granulated base and fine powdered base

For the colourant's and effects I've compiled a list (WIP):

Lycopodium Powder (Makes a cloud of flame)
Red - Lithium [Li2CO3], Strontium [SrCO3, Sr(NO3)2]
Orange - Calcium [CaCO3, CaSO4]
Yellow - Sodium [NaCl, NaNO3, Na2CO3]
Yellowish Green - Boron [Borax - Na2B4O7]
Green - Barium [Ba(NO3)2, BaCl2], Copper [CuSO4]
Blue - Copper [CuO, CuCO3], Copper Halides [CuCl2]
Purple/Violet - Potassium [KClO3, KCl, KNO3, K2SO4]
White/Silver - Aluminum, Magnesium, Titanium

Idea 1

The current release method on the drawing board would be a small metal container that would slot into a standard spec tube core (2mm thick Aluminium, 22mm (o)diameter, 18mm (i)diameter 58mm height).

The container would fit inside of this as I say which would be (2mm thick Aluminium, 18mm (o)diameter, 14mm (i)diameter) .

This would roughly leave approximately 8.9 cubic cm of space to fill. Maybe a tablespoon and a half of builders grade sand?

This would be enough to make a substantial flash effect with, for example, Magnesium Turnings. Or, if you wanted to play it dangerously, Lycopodium Powder (Dragon Powder).

Idea 2

Another effect I'm trying to achieve is sustained coloured flames utilizing centrifugal forces with a slowish release (Kind of like an hourglass where it pours out real slow!) which should last roughly 5 mins (A fairly good burn time I think).

My idea was, getting a small flask. Replacing with a pre-designed lid that would function in the "Hourglass Delivery" Style I'm looking for. But there has to be a means of ignition on the end that would be to enough to heat the spilling contents.

This method should it succeed would also be applicable to wire wool spinning if the wire wool was ground down.

What do you all think? Smile

sxylou123 · Joined: 27 Mar 2007 Posts: 481 Location: Margate, Kent

I thought about using powdered chemicals on the poi instead of mixing them into a spirit based formula for spinning. In my little chemistry set I have stuff like copper sulphate and other misc.

Have you tested the effect of the powder on a flame yet?

I was thinking more of applying it to the outside of the poi but this would cause some clogging of the fibres which would require cleaning after time but your idea sounds good, having the chemical inside the barrel on slow release.

Of course you would have the same problem with fumes and such but then that is the spinners precaution to wear some sort of filter to breathe through.

Just a thought, chalk has alot of calcium inside it, would/could you use crushed chalk as a colourant or does chalk only have a percentage of the mineral?

Louise

Daedra · Posted: Fri 02nd Nov, 2007 2:13 pm Post subject:

Currently all we have is design and snippets of research. We haven't been able to test the chemicals yet in any form as we don't have the chemicals and appropriate testing equipment to hand.

Our research delves into looking at the chemicals effects under certain circumstances.
For this my knowledge is negligible at best. I could use some input from Xan actually. He's very clued into chemicals and knows other people who have vast knowledge on the subject.

I'm currently formulating a document that I will post later on today if I can. It'll include the risks like if it's toxic, explosive etc.

Yeah there will be no chance of us getting into this without the right safety gear like decent respirators, goggles and gloves! As well as a nice ventilated area to do it in.

In terms of application I think the only way it could be done is through the use of mixing with the fuel, making a solution or the use of resins maybe.

As for the Calcium in chalk I don't think it would work. Tho I could be wrong, these ideas will be tested when we get round to actually testing it lol :P

One thing that did interest me tho that I heard about. If you get very fine iron and copper filings and use it in the same way as you would use wire wool. Then you'd get different coloured sparks. (Which will also be in our tests when we get round to them)

Psychotic Neurotic · Posted: Fri 02nd Nov, 2007 3:35 pm Post subject:

unfortunately chalk wouldn't work as it does not just have calcium in it, it's mainly calcium carbonate, which is a mixture of calcium, carbon and oxygen.
Calcium's a metal, how weird is that!?
Yay chemistry.
Has anyone ACTUALLY tried these colour effects? I mean, how the hell does one get hold of such chemicals? Also will they ruin your wick?

Daedra · Posted: Fri 02nd Nov, 2007 3:40 pm Post subject:

I have a pyrotechnics friend who is aiding me in the design and some supply of chemicals.

Also I'm getting some from this website as well as a couple of others.

Also one I heard about on another forum was this website

So we have a fair chunk of chemicals at our disposal in that respect. It's just finding the proper tools and safety stuff in order to test it all!

Psychotic Neurotic · Posted: Fri 02nd Nov, 2007 3:45 pm Post subject:

There's a thing you can download (it's mostly for colleges but is extremely comprehensive) that is a pdf called HAZCARDS.
It's basically a list of elements, what can go wrong with them when and what compounds of them are hazardous etc, i'll try find them

Psychotic Neurotic · Posted: Fri 02nd Nov, 2007 3:47 pm Post subject:

http://www.fisher.co.uk/techzone/msds.htm
thats quite good

MagsKat · Joined: 28 Aug 2007 Posts: 673 Location: S.U.R.R.E.Y

what about developing a solid thats is heat sensitive.. so you could have different coulor flames in sequence? i supose it would depend on the ignition point of each chemmical used and how the reach with each other.. but .. rainbow flames.. very pretty!!

popinman · Joined: 29 Sep 2007 Posts: 38

"Lycopodium Powder, Potassium [KClO3, KCl, KNO3, K2SO4], Magnesium,"

you should be carefull with these if u put them in aluminium inside the main ball of flame (especialy only 2mm thick)and get the release wrong it could heat up and produce a explosion thats turn the poi and aluminium into a low grade grenade, if you know what your doing with the chemicals and avoid bad mixes it should be fine but all the same might be better off oppting for something like lead case's or ruber if you could get hold of it (leads and rubber both are a lot less dangerous if they explode) the hour glass idea sounds cool you cud hook it up to the cord near the flame and then add a release mech and u'd get a rang from changing the color of the flame to making awsome powder flame tails

sound like fun all in all i like the second idea tho id stick to dipping poi for general color flame

Marvin · Joined: 02 Sep 2007 Posts: 126 Location: Cannock

also you'd find it amazingly hard to get the aluminium to burn as it will almost instanenously oxidise itself and also you maybe able to find a videos on the internet of the different flame reactions of different chemicals which may help you out

Invader_Xan · Joined: 02 May 2007 Posts: 540 Location: In Space

Daedra · Posted: Mon 05th Nov, 2007 1:05 pm Post subject:

Excellent :P I thought you'd weave your way into this thread in time Xan lol.
Thanks very much for your input! 'Tis very muchly appreciated! Very handy having you about the place hehe:P

Right well again thanks very much for that Xan! I'll add this to my notes!

So your still on the hunt for an alternative way for blue flames. It's mental everywhere you go its "Use Copper Chloride" But as you say it sounds bloody dangerous!

Invader_Xan · Joined: 02 May 2007 Posts: 540 Location: In Space

I once pulled up a MSDS from the net on Cu(I)Cl and almost let out a Homer Simpson shriek... Laughing

Glad I can be some help man. I figure it's best we all share knowledge on things like this.

Daedra · Posted: Tue 06th Nov, 2007 10:47 am Post subject:

Ah Xan! Thanks very much for the pm was a very good but a bloody long read!!

...But a good read!

Now all I need to do is find some time to actually start doing some small tests.

Invader_Xan · Joined: 02 May 2007 Posts: 540 Location: In Space

Ditto.

You can buy these things from some pyrotechnic suppliers. A couple of fireworks hobby websites based in the US will ship some components to the UK (and if they refuse to ship it, you don't want to be using it anyway!). Wink

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